long time lurker here.
i'm a fifth gen born-in baptized jw.
to say i've been struggling with doubts is an understatement.
You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Your road will not be and easy one, but the good news is you no longer have to live in dread. I hope your husband makes his way towards the light. For me it was my children that helped me out. Kids today can spot bull shit so much quicker than my generation. It took me 52 years to get completely out.
good luck
Keith
besides the about 48 hours you worked there a week, you would have other duties too.
there was dish duties.
then you had the night watchmen duties.........once every 2-3 years in the home, you pulled an all night watchman duty.
People would ask me "how long do you plan on staying at bethel" I would say "forever!.....or 4 years whichever comes first"
Besides the about 48 hours you worked there a week, you would have other duties too. There was dish duties. Since the waiters worked about from about 6 in the morning to about 4 in the afternoon, they needed someone to do the supper dishes. About once a month the bethel family got that privilege........Funny thing is you NEVER saw the heavies go them. They we fun especially in the summer time. The worst job was working the dish washing machine "HOT END" there was 2 brothers loading the front end and 2 guys taking the 140 degree dishes off the back end. Your hands were on fire. That is where I first meet Dave Borga. He was Jim Pipkorn best friend and roommate. He was the waiter that was in charge that night...........He put me on the HOT END......by myself.....he just set up on a counter laughing.......It was like that "I LOVE LUCY" show where she is in the factory with a conveyor belt, any way that was the last dish duty for me.
Then you had the night watchmen duties.........Once every 2-3 years in the home, you pulled an all night watchman duty. It started about 9 p.m. The Watchman would get a day off and you would fill in. It was very creepy. It was dark and you had to walk through all 3 buildings 119, 117 and 124 (not the 129) and their basements too. You did this loop three times and punch the time clock you had with you.
At about 3:00 a.m. in this dark basement of the 124 all of a sudden this guy jumps in front of me and SCREAMS. I thought I saw ghost of Charles Russel, I could have died. Guess who it was? It was Peter R......the real night watchmen, he said "he couldn't sleep.......and wanted to have some FUN with me!" What a JERK. About 2 years later, he was asked to leave (kicked out) bethel........It seemed he liked to sneak into the sisters bathrooms in the 117 building at night (they only had one bathroom per floor, Knorrs Idea on how to save money) He would lock the toilet door and do some free PEEPING, as the sisters were taking showers. I guess all those long nights by himself finally got to him. Good news…..he is an Elder in Salem Oregon now.
There was another guy, while I was there, who could beat that one. He would sneak into a married couples rooms (in the middle of the night) and lay on the floor next to the wife ....and copped a feel. Now you know why Knorr hated bethelities.
Anyway we got side tracked.......back to dish duties. Why do a dish duty? When you could get someone else to do them for you. So we would trade them or sell them. There was this one guy Allen Richards who would do your 2 hour dish duty for .89 cents, that was the price a 1/2 gallon of "Canadian Ace" beer.........the worst beer ever made. I bet he felt great the next day! So if you could get some poor schmuck to do it for .89 cents and you could get some side job for $1.75 an hour? Do the math!
Which brings us to the next subject of "G" jobs. NO ONE really knows were the name came from. But it is, any job you did to make more money....outside of the 22 dollars a month bethel gave you. You spent anywhere from $12 to $14 a month just on subway tokens.
They were many different types. Some guys in the press room ran "the paper route" it started at 3:00 a.m. on Sunday mornings. I did it once......not for me........Some guys did cratering jobs at weddings, great tips plus you could keep all the half-drunk wine bottles, when it was over. There was a waiting list, to work there. Some guys painted apartments. My friend Jim Pipkorn.....worked a funeral home in "the village"...........The stories I could tell you about that place. That would be a whole 2 page thread in itself. Dave Borga, turned into the King of all "G jobbers".....They still talk about him to this day in the "new boy talks"..............He had a FULL TIME job working the night shift at toy factory in Jersey. That’s right almost 90 hours a week of work! Needless to say he didn’t last long, at that pace, with only 3 to 4 hours sleep a night.
I was a dish washer I washed pots and pans in and high end restaurant 3 blocks from bethel in "the Heights"....To this day, I will not order turkey and dressing in a restaurant. They would serve these little loafs of bread in there and people would eat half of them.....they would put out their cigarettes butts in what was left of the bread......the waiters would bring them back to the kitchen and throw them in a box, on the floor, next week it was? You guessed it! Turkey and bread dressing day.
I also so worked in two liqueur stores one in "Inwood" and one in "The Heights" ........Hey $1.75 an hour is GOOD money. I was making only .08 cents an hour, working for Jehovah.I guess Jehovah doesn't believe in minimum wage. The extra 10-20 bucks a week made a BIG difference, in making your life a little more comfortable there. So even if the sisters forgot your dinner at the KH. Once or twice a week, you could get a "Hero and a Quart of beer" down at Pioneer deli. If you were really rolling, you would buy a chuck steak and frozen French fries and cook it up in your room, on your electric skillet.....THAT MY FRIEND WAS LIVING!
One day at lunch on Doctor Dixon's table the whole upper dining room was pretty quiet. One table was really loud, it was the tour table............he keep looking over and giving them a look like "how dare they disturb my eating......I said "You tell they are NOT bethelities".....he knew what I meant.......and said "I think you have a bad attitude about bethel"............I said "I have a bad attitude about New York City." He said "Are you kidding, look at all the great things you can do here, you have the plays and the fine dining!"
I said "Brother Dixon, I don't know your New York City. Our New York City is a hero sandwich and a quart of beer once a week, if we are lucky."
I knew a guy who was mugged in New York.......The guy put a gun to his head and said "give me your money or I'm going to blow your BRAINS out!" The man said "YOU better shoot........because I know one thing about New York, you can live here without brains....but you GOT to have MONEY!"
P.S.......that is the only story, I have told that is NOT true.
i 'm sorry all of this is not in order.
i'm writing as all this comes back to me.. .
my first room assignment was room 33 in the 129 building.
to Joe134cd
I journal
To ShirleyW I looked up ok so help me out.
Shuckin' and jivin' (or shucking and jiving) is a slang term for the behavior of joking and acting evasively. More generally, the term can also refer to the speech and behavioral mechanisms adopted in the presence of an authoritative figure.[1] Shuckin' and jivin' usually involves clever lies and impromptu storytelling, used to one-up an opponent or avoid punishment
i 'm sorry all of this is not in order.
i'm writing as all this comes back to me.. .
my first room assignment was room 33 in the 129 building.
I 'm sorry all of this is not in order. I'm writing as all this comes back to me.
My first room assignment was room 33 in the 129 building. It was and old building, built around the turn of the century, The society owned it but it had worldly people living in to. I'm not sure why but maybe there was a law that prevented them from being kicked out or something. It was a 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartment (about 1000 sq. ft.) There were 7 of us in there, all new boys (less than one year there). There was 2 guys in each of the bedrooms and 3 guys in the living room. I got the back bedroom with some righteous Spanish kid from Texas (forgot his name). The bedroom was about 10x10, there were 2 beds, 2 desks and 2 dressers in there. It was so small, you had to go outside to change your mind, LOL.
Some of the fun things we would do there is have roach races. Lots of cockroaches there. We would catch these roaches, put them in glass jar, draw a circle on the kitchen floor, put the glass jar in the middle and let them go, the first roach that got to the circle.....WON!.........the prize was getting squashed.
There was a 5 inch hole in our bathroom floor, (some repair job that never got fixed) next to the toilet. You could look down and see some guy sitting there on the toilet. So one day when this guy was sitting on his toilet, we got a glass of water and then flashed our toilet, (which he could hear) and through the water down the hole on this "brothers" head. You should have seen the look on his face.
Work is over at 5:40, so on Thursdays (my meeting night) we had to run home, change and jump on a subway train, about an hour ride (no time to eat) to make it on time to the ministry school. My congregation was Inwood, the last congregation on the island of Manhattan. It was about 80% black and Spanish..........God I love the Black KHs.......they are the nicest people you would ever meet. The best hall I have ever been in! You had to be down to earth and be able to "shuck and jive" with them..........They (like most people) hated "uppity" people. I was lucky, there were only six betheliets in my K hall. Two tight ass company men, Daryl Christianson and Larry Fisher both elders and 4 new boys, me, Dennis Miller, Dave Poroit, and Mike Adams who I later heard had a mental break down at the WT farm. I heard he tried to kill himself.........I wonder why?
Anyway if we were lucky, the sisters (at the hall) would give you some food in a brown paper bag at the end of the meeting, to take home with you. We would eat it on the train. You would have to wait until someone else was ready to leave before you could go. The reason was at the time, we were supposed to travel in "pairs"........to prevent getting "mugged" and just about everyone who was at bethel (in 4 years) got mugged at least once. They told us to have at least couple of bucks on us at all times. The reason was if you did get mugged and you didn't have any money on you, they (the muggers) would beat the shit out of you, thinking you had it hidden on you somewhere and you just didn't want to give it up. You, just don't want to piss off those crack heads! It was hard at times to have even 2 bucks on you. One friend of mine ended up in the hospital after they took a lead pipe to his head. The reason he was a "white boy" in Harlem with no money.
You would see the strangest stuff on the subway train.
You would be there eating your brown bag dinner and all of a sudden, some tramp at the other end of the car would be there and start, "jacking off" right in front of you. Or the door open and some 400 lb. black guy would get on the train wearing a pink "tutu" and you know he wasn't doing to a costume party.THE LAST THING you would ever do, is stare at someone. Don Broux (and xbethel & XCO)......happened to catch a guy's eyes for 2 SECONDS as the train was stopping. The guy jumped up, went over to Don and slugged him in the nose.....and said "WHAT THE F....K ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" It was Don's last week at bethel he got married 4 days later with a broken nose. Another friend of mine was just sitting on the train and this black guy walks up to him, with his 3 year old kid and points to my friend and says "DO YOU SEE THIS BOY?...........pointing to my friend, "THIS IS WHITETY!.......YOU HATE WHITETY!........YOU KILL WHITETY!..........then just walked off.
Those New Yorkers love to have fun with you.
On one of those hot summer nights in the summer of 1970. One of nights that it was still 90% humidity at 11:00 pm. One of those nights there was no brown paper bag with dinner in it, from the sisters, after the meeting. Sister Ierizery had forgot it was her turn to make us dinner that night. I got off the subway train with book bag in hand, suit and loosen tie around my neck clothes drenched with sweat. Most of the trains in the early seventies still didn’t have AC in them. Me and some other Bethelites who congregations were over an hour away climbed up the stairs from the subway. At the top of the stairs we got a blast of cooler air. God did that feel good. Another day was over. Only three years left.
A block away was the “Pioneer market” (yes that was the real name). The brothers with money could go there and get a hero sandwich for $2 bucks. It was the end of the month so there was no money for food. There was just enough money for subway tokens to get to and from the meetings. I walked back to the 129 building, got to my room and just started crying for no reason. I went to the kitchen open the refrigerator door to see a bottle of "cold duck" I had bought a week earlier. I have no idea why I bought something as stupid as that. I guess it sounded interesting ...... I grabbed it and drank the whole thing in 3 mins.......The room started to spin, I laid down on my bed and after a few mins. Through up all over the bed and myself. I just laid there crying. I was the first time I had ever got drunk in my life.
"Are you O.K."...my roommate asked.........."I'm sick" I said.......and I was....sick of heart.
I thought, It really was true............"They really didn't give a shit about us."
the machines conquer all!.
after our meeting with knorr and the heavies, some of the boys and me got a job changes.
i was sent to bindery 5th floor, building 3, bindery line 5..
The Machines conquer all!
After our meeting with Knorr and the “Heavies,” some of the boys and me got a job changes.
I was sent to Bindery 5th floor, Building 3, bindery line 5.
Welcome to hell. Abandoned hope all who enter here.
Standing in the same spot, 8 hours and 40 mins a day. You would take a book out of one machine, the “rounder” and shoved it into another machine the “back liner.” You would do this same motion 16,000 to 17,000 times in one day.
You would get the "1000 yard stare." The same one you would see in the war movies, the same stare that guys would get after they have seen too much.
To fight off the boredom you would play mental games with yourself. The first week there I thought about everyone I ever meet. The next week you would think about every movie you ever saw. The next week, about every place you would like to travel to. The next week you would, think about every mistake you ever made. And then there was the girls, lots of thinking about girls. Then it all stopped and next week, someone would walk up and ask you "What are you thinking about?"
"NOTHING" you would say, you were brain dead. There was just the groaning sound of the machines. Days drifted into weeks, weeks into years.
There is eternality! Some hours in that factory feel like it. There were days you looked at the clock and it would say 2:13. You would look again and it would say 2:26! There is a hell.
A good friend of mine, Jim Pipkorn, who also stood up at the Black September meeting. He worked with me in the laundry. He got shafted to the bindery too, to the "end sheet gluer." In the bindery he got so depressed that for months, he would come back to his room at night and make himself some dinner. Then he would go to bed, at about 7:00 p.m.
I asked him why he was doing that, he said "It makes the days go by quicker"
We were counting our time. It was just like Viet Nam. You would ask a guy how long he had left. He would say "3 years 2 months to go" We would say "You Poor bastard......that is after 1975, so you will never have any sex." You should have seen the look on his face.
Of course there is no racial prejudice in the Lords house.
Yet about 20% of the Bethelites were black but about 60% of the guys in the bindery were black. It seemed odd to me so, I asked Calvin Chiych (assistant factory overseer at the time) why that was, he said it was "Because the black 'brothers' have a NATURAL rhythm which works well with the machines.”
So they got some of the shitist jobs in the factory because of their “natural rhythm.”
I was dying every day. I prayed "Please God get me out of here."
I found this picture of this old guy with grey hair, he was praying with a bible and a loaf of bread on a table, hands folded, maybe you have seen it? I hung it up in my locker. One day my floor overseer Phill Gouckinbil saw it and said "What is this brother Casarona? This guy is not a witness! Because that is not a new world translation bible on the table" I said "I thought he was! That he was one of the anointed ones, behind the iron curtain and that was the only bible he could get!".........."Mmmmm" he said as he walked away. I had nothing to lose I was alright at one of the worst jobs in the factory.
Well, It must have worked........I got a job change 2 weeks later to the east freight elevator building one. I thought I died and went to haven. I could walk around and even go to the bathroom anytime I wanted. I was my own boss......WOW I was in heaven.
That is where I meet the press room animals, Great guys.
Just below the press room is the 5th floor ink room. These guys were "The Mash unit" of the factory..........these guys got away with murder. ........they had coffee breaks. They even had a place they could hide and one of them could take a nap, as the others were on look out. Their overseer was Norm Brecky. I really cool guy I thought, until Jimmy Olsen killed himself. Anyway he would go to bat, for his boys “The Inkies” which he did so more than once.
One day, down by glue room, I was standing there with Mike Stillman and 2 other guys. Mike had this big wooden paddle about six ft. long. He was beating the harden glue with it. It made a sound like a whip hitting flesh. He would yell out "FEED THE ROUNDER (a cruel bindery machine)........SLAP..........FEED THE ROUNDER ..........SLAP! ”Please don't beat me, brother overseer..............FEED THE ROUNDER............SLAP!"........We were all laughing. Just then walking up from behind us was none other than "Liver lips Linderman".....The head bindery overseer! He stood there for a minute quaking and finally said "Just WHAT do think, would have happened if it was a TOUR that came over that bridge instead of ME!"
Mike Just stood there, with his paddle over his shoulder and said..........."Well, I guess they would think we normal, like everyone else!"
Oh MY GOD, we are so screwed, I thought! One thing you would never do at bethel is defend yourself.
Linderman stood there with smoke coming out of his ears and with a hateful smile. He didn’t know what to say. How dare us stand up to him. He finally said "YOU...........HAVE DONE A VERY BAD THING" and walked off. We are totally screwed.
That was it, I thought, bindery here we come…. back to hell!
But no, Norm came through again. He saved us.
That is, what is so nice about Bethel, it’s the love! ..............and of course there is NO fear of man.
Monday part 6
the machines conquer all!.
after our meeting with knorr and the heavies, some of the boys and me got a job changes.
i was sent to bindery 5th floor, building 3, bindery line 5..
The Machines conquer all!
After our meeting with Knorr and the “Heavies,” some of the boys and me got a job changes.
I was sent to Bindery 5th floor, Building 3, bindery line 5.
Welcome to hell. Abandoned hope all who enter here.
Standing in the same spot, 8 hours and 40 mins a day. You would take a book out of one machine and the “rounder” and shoving it into another machine the “back liner.” You would do this same motion 16,000 to 17,000 times in one day.
You would get the 1000 yard stare. The same one you would see in the war movies, the same stare that guys would get after they have seen too much.
To fight off the boredom you would play mental games with yourself. The first week there I thought about everyone I ever meet. The next week you would think about every movie you ever saw. The next week, about every place you would like to travel to. The next week you would, think about every mistake you ever made. And then there was the girls, lots of thinking about girls. Then it all stopped and next week, someone would walk up and ask you "What are you thinking about?"
"NOTHING" you would say, you were brain dead. There was just the groaning sound of the machines. Days drifted into weeks, weeks into years.
There is eternality! Some hours in that factory feel like it. There were days you looked at the clock and it would say 2:13. You would look again and it would say 2:26! There is a hell.
A good friend of mine, Jim Pipkorn, who also stood up at the Black September meeting. He worked with me in the laundry. He got shafted to the bindery too, to the "end sheet gluer." In the bindery he got so depressed that for months, he would come back to his room at night and make himself some dinner. Then he would go to bed, at about 7:00 p.m.
I asked him why he was doing that, he said "It makes the days go by quicker"
We were counting our time. It was just like Viet Nam. You would ask a guy how long he had left. He would say "3 years 2 months to go" We would say "You Poor bastard......that is after 1975, so you will never have any sex." You should have seen the look on his face.
Of course there is no racial prejudice in the Lords house.
Yet about 20% of the Bethelites were black but about 60% of the guys in the bindery were black. It seemed odd to me so, I asked Calvin Chiych (assistant factory overseer at the time) why that was, he said it was "Because the black 'brothers' have a NATURAL rhythm which works well with the machines.”
So they got some of the shitist jobs in the factory because of their “natural rhythm.”
I was dying every day. I prayed "Please God get me out of here."
I found this picture of this old guy with grey hair, he was praying with a bible and a loaf of bread on a table, hands folded, maybe you have seen it? I hung it up in my locker. One day my floor overseer Phill Gouckinbil saw it and said "What is this brother Casarona? This guy is not a witness! Because that is not a new world translation bible on the table" I said "I thought he was! That he was one of the anointed ones, behind the iron curtain and that was the only bible he could get!".........."Mmmmm" he said as he walked away. I had nothing to lose I was alright at one of the worst jobs in the factory.
Well, It must have worked........I got a job change 2 weeks later to the east freight elevator building one. I thought I died and went to haven. I could walk around and even go to the bathroom anytime I wanted. I was my own boss......WOW I was in heaven.
That is where I meet the press room animals, Great guys.
Just below the press room is the 5th floor ink room. These guys were "The Mash unit" of the factory..........these guys got away with murder. ........they had coffee breaks. They even had a place they could hide and one of them could take a nap, as the others were on look out. Their overseer was Norm Brecky. I really cool guy I thought, until Jimmy Olsen killed himself. Anyway he would go to bat, for his boys “The Inkies” which he did so more than once.
One day, down by glue room, I was standing there with Mike Stillman and 2 other guys. Mike had this big wooden paddle about six ft. long. He was beating the harden glue with it. It made a sound like a whip hitting flesh. He would yell out "FEED THE ROUNDER (a cruel bindery machine)........SLAP..........FEED THE ROUNDER ..........SLAP! ”Please don't beat me, brother overseer..............FEED THE ROUNDER............SLAP!"........We were all laughing. Just then walking up from behind us was none other than "Liver lips Linderman".....The head bindery overseer! He stood there for a minute quaking and finally said "Just WHAT do think, would have happened if it was a TOUR that came over that bridge instead of ME!"
Mike Just stood there, with his paddle over his shoulder and said..........."Well, I guess they would think we normal, like everyone else!"
Oh MY GOD, we are so screwed, I thought! One thing you would never do at bethel is defend yourself.
Linderman stood there with smoke coming out of his ears and with a hateful smile. He didn’t know what to say. How dare us stand up to him. He finally said "YOU...........HAVE DONE A VERY BAD THING" and walked off. We are totally screwed.
That was it, I thought, bindery here we come…. back to hell!
But no, Norm came through again. He saved us.
That is, what is so nice about Bethel, it’s the love! ..............and of course there is NO fear of man.
Monday part 6
so i was hoping to get some insight on this subject of telling your spouse that you no longer believe in god.
for two people who have been jehovahs witnesses for 20 years together, talking about this seems to be real hard for me.
i still pray with my wife before meals but that's about it.
I would fake it. After all you are not really sure one way or another.....right?
So why make an issue of something that your not sure of anyway.
Besides who knows maybe there is a god. It just may not be the mean, hateful and jealous god Jehovah,
ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone...for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" - james 2: 24, 26
al capone vs. judge rutherford
al capone gained his power by exploiting the weaknesses of people.. judge rutherford gained his power by exploiting the weaknesses of people.
remember the video of all the nice dudes who were on the governing body in the 70s?
(here's a refresher).. well this is what their lives were really like - the same as when i was there.
by the time it got to the end, all was left was chicken backs.
black thursday september 1972. .
knorr gathered all the bethel "heavies" and gb to the kh in the 119 building.
the three freds (circuit overseers) and about 50 brothers.....thats right only 50. the other guys chickened out, they knew it was going to be a blood bath.
Black Thursday September 1972
Knorr gathered all the bethel "Heavies" and GB to the KH in the 119 building. The Three Freds (circuit overseers) and about 50 brothers.....that’s right only 50. The other guys chickened out, they knew it was going to be a blood bath. I was there with 7 others from the Laundry.
It started out with Dan Smoally (not even 30 years old and partaking) telling about what Max Larson (head of the whole factory) told him "there was NO WAY he was one of the ANOINTED!" Max at the time was a member of the great crowd. I mean how could God pick him, some kid? When Max was there at Gods house for over 40 years? Sometimes I wonder how God picks those anointed guys anyway, God can be strange sometimes.
Well the stories of Bethel's Elders misconduct and abuse of power kept flowing.They were shaking the pillars of the organization! Knorr got MADER and MADER...........he would have loved to have killed us all, if he could have! Everyone knew these men were above the law. How dare we! Where the hell is JEHU, when you need him?
As Knorr when off on all of us. As he was ranting.................all of a sudden Fred Franz stood up and said "These men are appointed to their positions of (power) responsibility NOT because of their spiritual qualifications. BUT because of their secular abilities!" The room was silent.
Knorr said "We will LOOK into these matters".......................END OF MEETING.
So............................What happened? There was only ONE committee meeting. It was about my Laundry overseer, Ken Doweling .......They gave him a slap on the hand. He was moved out of the Laundry.......and by the time I left Bethel 2 years later, was promoted to where else, the Bethel office! Back in the most powerful office in the home.
He was "a company man" and "company men" always take care of their own......Just look at the elders in any KH.
They didn't kick the 3 Freds out (bad publicity and we know how the "brothers" hate publicity)..........instead they just make their lives living hell...........They even put Fred Barnes (in his 50's) on a "gather" a machine that even 19 year olds have a problem staying up with............He had a heart attack.......they were kind enough to take him off it.
The rest of us "Laundry boys"..........we were screwed! We had done the unforgivable, by binging up wrong doings of bethel overseers...Our Bethel careers were over. There was only one thing left to do, serve our time and get out.
I was sent to the bindery........It made the Laundry look like haven. They put me on a sewing machine. It was the night shift. A sewing machine, is a machine were you sit and sew signatures together in a flipping motion that you do 40,000-50,000 a day. After three months, I was put on a bindery line were you would stand, all day between 2 machines. You would take the book out of the "rounder" and put in the "back liner"----16,000 to 17,000 times a day. If you begged your line overseer .......he might give you a 10 min. break to go to the bathroom every four hours. They could have bought a machine to do the same thing but it only cost them $22 a month for a warm body to do the job.
The saying was "There is no shaft at bethel, every job is a privilege of service" There is another saying too “I don't care if you pee on me, but don't just call in WATER!”
One time an army general come through on a tour of the factory.........He was shaking his head. The tour guide said "I'm sure you could get your troops to do the same thing"..........He said " Are you kidding.. No way"
